Sunday, December 28, 2008

10,000 Hours

I was reading some chapters from Malcom Gladwell’s Outlier. Gladwell cites research that indicates that more than talent, what it takes to become truly competent at a complex skill like, say, concert violin, is practice. Researchers couldn’t find evidence of people who became symphony orchestra level competent who hadn’t put in horrendous amounts of practice, no matter how talented. In fact, the magic number seems to be about 10,000 hours of practice.

This is, apparently, a necessary but not sufficient thing. That is, you won’t attain true competency without the 10,000 hours of practice, but you can put in the ten thousand and not attain competency. Although apparently, that’s pretty rare. He has a lot of complex and interesting things to say about this phenomena and the book is a really fun read. What it got me thinking about, of course, is my area of interest, fiction writing.

In fiction writing, there seems to be a sense that on average it takes about ten years to get published. This turns out to be pretty accurate in my case. I got really serious about writing when I was nineteen. I published my first story when I was 29. Last night I was lying in bed thinking about my writing habits and I figure I wrote about twenty hours a week, much of that time. Most of it on weekends. I didn’t have a real job. I didn’t have a serious relationship. I didn’t even have a couch. I had a series of temp jobs and a typewriter. Eventually, a computer. When I crunch the numbers, it comes out somewhere around 10,000 hours. That, for me, was just to get competent.

There are other ways that writing people say this. I was told that everyone has 100,000 words of crap in them that they have to write first. I explain to my students that in my case this was not true. I had about a million words of crap. But probably, what I had was 10,000 hours.

There are lots of exceptions to this, people who publish at seventeen. But my sense is that publishing too early is not actually a good thing. I’ve had people at Clarion who published fairly early in their practice of writing (which is different than their age) and it often seems to me that they wrote a story that was something of a fluke. They have the sense, rightly, that there was something about the story, a kind of gimmick, that got it published. They are often looking for more of the same, trying to find the twist, the idea, the ‘thing’ that makes the story publishable. Flukes are a hard way to sustain a career. I think that an early publication and years of failing to follow up can actually be soul destroying.

This also explains to me why some of my older students, who have so many things I think are important to being a writer—something to say, a strong sense of story and a large depth of reading—still struggle. Intelligence is necessary, but not sufficient. They also need 10,000 hours of practice to get to the point where they are competent to solve the hundred little problems a page that a piece of fiction demands of the writer. Things like, how much to explain, how much to explain in the narrative, how much from the character, how to get the character out of the kitchen and to the scene of the fire. For a competent writer, the way they do these things is intuitive. I don’t tend to think about how much of the narrative is from the narrator and how much from the character. I’m not even aware that I’m making those decisions. Neither is the unpracticed writer. The difference is that after years of practice, I have a set of unconscious skills that tell me what is more likely to be successful. I know when it ‘feels right.’ For me, only after 10,000 hours could I actually start to think about a lot of the decisions I made to solve those problems. Before that, like learning to ride a bicycle, if I thought too much, I fell off. The prose got stiff, overly self-conscious, mannered in a bad way.

I’m wondering now what a second 10,000 hours does. And a third. Does it make a difference that I started writing seriously at nineteen? Would I be able to start writing seriously now, at fifty, and at sixty produce something competent? I think so, although I’m not sure. I’m pretty sure it, and I, would be different than what I will produce at sixty now. The practice shapes me as much as I shape the practice.

What does it take to lose competency? At some point, most of us begin to decline. Can that 10,000 hours of practice be wasted, lost, misplaced? Certainly by things like a stroke. What does disuse do?

It is a strange life, the life of someone, a programmer, a physician, a pilot, whose job depends on just this kind of practice. A race between getting in the hours and the lose of capacity.

10,000 hours. Had I known what it would take, I don’t know that I’d have ever made it.


Anonymous Bob said...

So what you're saying is, a merely competent writer can produce 10 crap words per hour whereas you can produce 100 crap words per hour. You set a high standard, McHugh.

December 28, 2008 6:41 PM  
Blogger Maureen McHugh said...

It's what separates the men from the boys. Or, the women from the girls. Or something.

December 28, 2008 6:42 PM  
Blogger Rose Fox said...

When I was quite young, I displayed a fair amount of aptitude for mental arithmetic, which I quite enjoyed. My stepfather, a mathematician, strongly encouraged me to study math, and I even majored in math for a year or so at college. When I dropped out and declared myself through with academia, he was outraged. "Mathematicians do their best work before they're 30!" he cried. "You have to take advantage of your skills before they atrophy!" I attempted in vain to explain that my love of arithmetic had never translated to a love of higher mathematics. I like puzzling things out and following logical steps. I don't like calculus or differential equations; they don't scratch the same itch.

When I heard of the 10,000-hours theory, my first question was whether it applied to mathematicians. I've met many people who love arithmetic but hate calculus, and a surprising number who hate arithmetic but love calculus. This leads me to believe that the first, say, ten years of studying math don't really count towards the brain training needed for higher math, which would then imply that the 10,000 hours or ten years of studying higher math would start around age 18 and end around age 28. How does that jibe with my stepfather's assertion (which seems to be sort of backed up by some anecdotal evidence) that after 30 your math skills begin to decay?

If Gladwell interviews mathematicians in Outlier, I'd love to read that section.

December 29, 2008 3:34 AM  
Blogger Caroline M. Yoachim said...

This makes me wonder what does and doesn't count as practice for a fiction writer. The big one is reading. Do hours spent reading fiction count towards the 10k? It seems to me that someone who has read a lot of fiction would take fewer hours to become competent at writing it than someone who hasn't read much fiction at all. But perhaps not. Or perhaps reading fiction is more of a prerequisite, in that people who don't read fiction never get through the 10k hours anyway.

If reading hours don't count (and I suspect, sadly, that they don't), I end up at 6k. So expect competent* writing from me sometime in the next few years :)

* I do wish the study had used 'mastery' (or something similar) instead of 'competence.' The idea of being classified as incompetent bothers me, even though I have no problem with needing more practice. Because everyone can always use a little more practice.

(and speaking of practice, I'd better stop posting blog comments and get back to revising my story.)

December 29, 2008 9:51 AM  
Blogger Michelle said...

This is an interesting post. As an amateur musician, I put in about 60 to 90 minutes of practice every morning, which I NEVER feel is adequate, but all the time my adult life will spare. Of course this doesn't include rehearsals and performances, which average approximately another 10 hours per week. But then I haven't counted the easy 60 minutes or more a day I spend reading trumpet forums, buzzing my mouthpiece in the car, listening to trumpet music, etc. I guess that would equate to research in a writer. I wonder, does Gladwell suggest that (stuff that's part of your craft, but not the actual craft itself) is part of the 10,000 hours? Or is just writing or just playing for 10,000 the answer. If so, then you put in A LOT more than 10,000 hours to get to the end point.

I don't make a living playing my trumpet, although my teacher has suggested more than once that I should take on some students and start teaching. But teaching is a different skillset entirely, as evidenced by no lack of really talented people who cannot find a way to empart their knowledge on all their students.

When I was in high school I wanted to be a professional musician. Not being able to go to college meant I put my horn down for 18 years. I have been playing again for 6 years and it has been a struggle and a joy at the same time. I play better now than I did before I put my horn down, but there are gaps in my knowledge that wouldn't be there if I had taken college music theory classes. I'm filling those gaps in as needed, like learning to transpose when I joined the Women's Orchestra.

Your post makes me wonder where in the 10,000 hours I am now? I mean, did it start over again when I picked my horn back up after 18 years off? Did it get discounted for the time off, but I still get credit for the original years?

Not that it matters, I'm not auditioning for the Cleveland Orchestra any time soon :)

I do know there's merit to the Gladwell's theory, as any professional musician will tell you the difference between a talented amateur and a talented professional is the amount of time they practice. I can't put in 8 to 10 hours a day due to the house, the job, the critters, the hubby. The grad student that sits next to me in the brass band I play in puts in 8 hours of personal practice time every day in addition to all the rehearsals he goes to, research, etc. His trumpet IS his job, wife, house, etc. He has several auditions coming up and I have no doubt he'll be landing a nice orchestra job soon.

I think that in order to do your craft on a professional level, Gladwell is right that you have to put a lot of time in before you see the rewards, which are usually less about money and more about the joy of the craft. And it's the exact reason why far less succeed than try. Frankly, as much as I love playing my trumpet, I couldn't afford to make a living playing it. I make more walking dogs than I would ever make playing my horn. When my dog business was in full swing, I was making equivalent to the salary of a member of the Cleveland Orchestra, only with a lot more freedom in my life. You have to love the craft itself enough to not care about the money, which is a lot easier to do when you're in college than when you're mid-40s, married, own a mortgage, etc. I've cut my dog business back and so now I have more time for my horn, but not with the idea of making money with it, just the joy of playing.

I do wonder if Gladwell has any thoughts on people who take breaks from their craft and then come back to it later.

December 29, 2008 10:00 AM  
Blogger Gregory Feeley said...

I sold my first story at seventeen, and my second about ten years later. The reasons were particular to my circumstances -- partly because my critical standards rose faster than my writing skills did; partly because I was trying to write novels rather than stories -- and I have to say that, during those long years, knowing I had once sold a story to a professional market and could certainly do so again was often a comfort.

Gladwell talks about the 10,000 hour rule, and he also talks about the unusual difficulties of learning how to teach. It's hard not to notice that teachers don't get anything like that much time to learn their craft.

December 29, 2008 10:03 AM  
Blogger Ted said...

Not having read the Gladwell, my initial reaction was that the 10,000-hour requirement for concert musicians must have to do with physical coordination, or, more specifically, automatization. It takes a certain number of repetitions before a physical movement can be done unconsciously; while some physical skills can be acquired more quickly (it doesn't take 10,000 hours to learn how to touch type), I can imagine that other skills would require much more practice. Professional athletes would be another obvious example.

I find it much harder to see how a period of 10,000 hours could be significant across the whole range of human endeavor. Is there any indication that the best directors shot 10,000 hours of film before making their best movies? Could the best fighter pilots really have had 10,000 hours of flight time?

Obviously practice helps in everything. But I'm wary of attempts to quantify it, especially across radically different activities. My impression is that Gladwell's book is an attempt to point out that youthful brilliance isn't the only or even best kind, which I'd agree with. But I think it definitely exists.

December 29, 2008 2:03 PM  
Blogger Maureen McHugh said...

Ted, one of the examples that Gladwell discusses at length is programming. So I would say that he does, in face, argue what you are distrustful of. (He discusses, specifically, Bill Joy who co-founded Sun Microsystems.) I do think that for someone reason the 10,000 hours feels right for fiction. Gladwell does some handwaving about establishing brain modeling of complex tasks but didn't, in the portions of the book that I read, discuss that in any depth at all.

Caroline, Gladwell does say 'mastery.' I just don't like mastery. But agree, the dichotomy of competent/incompetent is both infelicitous and wrong.

December 29, 2008 2:33 PM  
Blogger Ted said...

I may try reading Gladwell's book, but based on the articles about the book that a quick Google search turns up, I'm very, very skeptical. (I should note that I'm not a great fan of Gladwell's work in general; I think he tends to mistake anecdotal evidence for real evidence.)

The articles about the book say that Gladwell cites the Beatles as an example of the 10,000 hour figure, based on their touring schedule in their early years. That seems to me an example of making the data fit one's thesis. Lennon and McCartney achieved greatness through their songwriting, not because they were masters of the guitar. They may have toured a lot of hours, but that's not what made them the Beatles.

December 29, 2008 7:28 PM  
Anonymous claire said...

Ted, I just finished the book (got it for christmas) and what gladwell wrote about the beatles was quite different. I didn't know this about them (assuming it's true), but it seems that they got hooked up with a strip club that had live bands playing instead of recorded music.

So they would be up there on stage for EIGHT HOURS STRAIGHT. And this would be for weeks at a time, over a two-year period. Gladwell quotes one of them saying that having to play for eight hours affected their development radically because they couldn't just play their own compositions; they had to play covers, and lots of them.

Presumably, to even have enough material to play eight hours straight, they had to practice a lot more. So yeah, it's plausible that in their two years in Hamburg they could have finished off their 10,000 hours.

December 30, 2008 12:16 AM  
Blogger Ted said...

How do you see that as contradicting what I'm saying? Sure they got 10,000 hours of practice in on their instruments. But the Beatles aren't great because of their performance skills, they're great because of their songwriting skills. And they didn't spend 10,000 hours writing songs.

(If Gladwell is suggesting that 10,000 hours of playing other people's music makes one a great songwriter, then every symphony musician should be a great composer.)

December 30, 2008 3:36 AM  
Blogger Erin O'Brien said...

aw shit.

December 30, 2008 9:30 AM  
Blogger Maureen McHugh said...

I think Gladwell would say 10,000 hours of practice is necessary but not sufficient, and that talent or natural predisposition is important. His overall point is that it is not as important as we think.

While the whole 10,000 hours thing seemed to have some correlation to my learning to write fiction, in the end, like Ted, I find Gladwell glib. He seems to me to oversimplify. And once he has what he sees as a nifty idea, it becomes his hammer, and everything in the world is a nail.

December 30, 2008 10:42 AM  
Blogger Darby M. Dixon III said...

I would say more but I have to go back to achieving competency in Grand Theft Auto IV.

December 30, 2008 12:57 PM  
Blogger Dal Jeanis said...

Ted -

I'm not competent to discuss the specifics of the music theory, but I think you're creating a false dichotomy when you try to differentiate between the Beatles being famous as songwriters versus as performers.

Once a band has 10K hours of experience in making other people's songs sound excellent, wouldn't you expect that making a song of their own, that they have full control over, sound good might be easy?

Wouldn't you expect them to know, over a broad range of songs, what sounded good? Wouldn't you expect them to have a versatile range of styles to mix and match their own from? Wouldn't you expect them to know what audiences like?

All of those things lead to excellence as songwriters. And those, combined with having a famous group (themselves) play the songs, then leads to their fame as songwriters.

Whether the number is 10K or 7K, whether the hours playing strip covers fulfilled all the hours they needed, or just most of them, is an arbitrary discussion. The bottom line is, they put in their hours and earned what they got.

And 10K hours is not an unreasonable estimate across the subjects I'm familiar with mastery of. The question after that is, to what degree is mastery in X transferable to mastery in Y?

I argue above that playing covers is largely transferable to songwriting. I'll leave it to musicians to discuss whether it's 60% or 90%.

Note - regarding lyrics, I do feel qualified to state my opinion. As poetry, "She Loves You" (1963) is grade school end-rhyme, nothing special at all. (of/love, day/say, bad/glad, so/know) But it's the 64th best song of all time according to Rolling Stone.

December 30, 2008 2:16 PM  
Blogger Jackie M. said...

Sorry Ted. The most powerful and talented Jedi knight on the planet you may be! But not yet a master are you.

December 30, 2008 6:55 PM  
Blogger Ted said...

I don't deny that there's a relationship between performing and songwriting. But among singer/songwriters, there are clearly some who are admired more for one than the other. Bob Dylan, for example, is celebrated as a songwriter, but less so as a singer/guitarist. By contrast, Jeff Beck is considered one of the world's great guitarists, but an indifferent songwriter. I think the Beatles' fame has more to do with Lennon and McCartney's songwriting than their guitar playing.

If all Gladwell is saying is that the Beatles weren't overnight successes, that they put in long hours of hard work before anyone ever heard of them, then fine, no argument from me. But trying to add up the hours people have spent on their craft and identifying a particular threshold value will require a lot more data than I have ever seen Gladwell assemble.

December 31, 2008 4:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is a topic I've been interested in for a long time. There is a book called: Talent is Overrated by Geoff Colvin. Also see the article based on the book at Fortune on

His take seems to be more thoroughgoing than Gladwell's. He goes into detail about what is different in the approach of those who do achieve mastery of a skill.

Some things I've observed:

1. Different domains of human achievement have different minimum levels of intelligence required. To be a Nuclear physicist intelligence is pretty crucial but to be a musician not so much unless you want to be a composer or conductor. More intelligence is not always useful or better.

2. Some activities are very talent based. To be an Olympic sprinter or marathoner the right kind of talent is absolutely necessary. On the other hand the sprinter works out about an hour a day while the marathoner spends 4 or 5 hours a day running. That is to say that the actual amount of work it takes to manifest a given talent can be quite different.

3. Skills requiring complex physical co-ordination are the easiest proof cases for the 10,000 hour rule. The average ballerina starts to take class at the age of 5 and by the time she is 18 she is flirting with the 10,000 hour mark. At that time she is either good enough to go on with professional training or she finds something else to do.

4. A small advantage pursued consistently over a long period of time becomes a large advantage. This is what makes the 10,000 hour rule work.

5. The 10,000 hour rule is a tautology. If you make a reasonable effort to stay fed and healthy over a period 10 years then 10,000 hours are about what you have left to actually dedicate to developing a skill.

6. There is a time constant involved in being noticed by the world once you start to do work worth noticing. Creative artists of any kind experience this. In the meantime you keep working at your craft and develop a clearer idea of what you are trying to do.

I agree with Ted on the Beatles and songwriting. Also a strong argument can be made that Lennon and McCartney working together wrote better songs than the ones they produced after they split up. Further, there are two ingredients that aren't usually mentioned. The influence of producer George Martin was essential to their development and they did most of their recordings a EMI's Abbey Road studios which had equipment and staff that were unmatched anywhere else in the world.

This goes back to something I think Gladwell does talk about judging by the reviews I've read of the book. That is, highly successful people are not in control of all the factors that lead to their success.

It is also interesting that McCartney has attempted longer compositions as he has gotten older and shows no aptitude for it. He has never developed any sense of large scale structure. He is a gifted melodist but has no idea how too develop the material he creates.

January 01, 2009 6:43 PM  
Blogger gordsellar said...

Yeah, I've long been skeptical of Gladwell's approach, even though I've just read occasional bits. One guy's actually slowly working his way through the book doing a critical analysis of it, starting here:

and he raises the kinds of objections I think most bright readers intuit when reading stuff like Gladwell's.

As for the 10,000 hours, one must wonder what counts as "writing" -- when I was in grad school, I spent almost as much time emailing a mailing list I was on as I did writing fiction or academic stuff. I'm pretty sure I typed a million words to that mailing list in a couple of years flat. I don't know whether it fed into any greater writing "mastery" in the area of fiction, though I think it has.

I do think it's somewhat different with music. I've known people -- lived with one, a sibling -- who seem somehow just to be gifted at it. (Usually, though, these people are performers. I've never met a composer or songwriter who was like that, but I've known lots of people who were really good performers at a very early age and who seemed to advance on a certain amount of practice, where I personally needed to practice multiple times as many hours to move forward in my own playing.)

Hell, in Korea I've met musicians who were pretty damned competent, and when I said, "How long have you been playing jazz?" they'd say, "Oh, a year," or, "Six months!" Sure, they'd been playing their instrument for many years more, but jazz piano is to classical piano as poetry is to newspaper-writing: radically different skill sets are involved.

Which brings me to songwriting/composing: I have to agree with Ted: creating new musical works is a radically different business than playing them. Most instrumentalists I know who are classically trained not only can't write music, they don't even know enough musical theory to analyze how successful pieces in the past have worked. And forget about improvisiing: it scares them. This says a lot about how we teach music, but also about how different the skill-sets are for performing musicians versus composers, songwriters, and so on. There's overlap, yes, and I've never met a composer who couldn't play some instrument, but I think virtuoso performers are rarely composers, and vice-versa. (Especially today.)

Last thing: this is what makes it somewhat less astonishing that so many child prodigies of the past achieved so much so young: after all, those 10,000 hours were available to them much earlier. For most of us, mandatory schooling fills much of that time. One must wonder how that has impacted upon the artistic sensibilities of our world today. (And how those sensibilities would differ if we had artists and musicians and so on putting in their 10,000 hours by the age of 12, instead of 18 or 20. Not that this would necessarily be better -- I'm just curious how it would differ...)

January 02, 2009 11:48 PM  
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March 24, 2009 3:31 AM  
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